1-on-1 Web Design Coaching Session | Episode #9 Matthew Latimer

web design coaching

1-on-1 with Patrick is a series of web design coaching sessions for wannabe web designers.

In this episode we have Matthew Latimer from Inverness, Scotland! We discuss:

  • Where Matthew is at in his web design journey
  • How Matthew got his first web design clients
  • What tools Matthew is using to build websites
  • How to effectively manage your time and energy
  • Aggressively filtering what your mind is exposed to
  • The best WordPress plugins and web design tools in 2020
  • Why I changed my favorite SEO plugin from Yoast to Rank Math
  • Why it’s important to keep your websites lean and mean
  • Is it important to display web design pricing on your website?
  • Ecommerce alternatives to Woocommerce + WordPress
  • How to transfer a website to a client once it’s published
  • Our mutual hatred for social media
  • Concluding thoughts

 

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Tools & Resources Mentioned in This Episode

 

Episode Transcript

Where Matthew is At in His Web Design Journey

Patrick: So, you’re from Scotland.

Matthew: Yes, so I live in Inverness, which is way up the North end of Scotland. So not far from Loch Ness and that kind of thing.

Patrick: That’s pretty much how I know that name.

Matthew: Yes, pretty much. Most people, especially if they have never been, that’s the first thing they say. “Is it near Loch Ness?”

Patrick: I’m sure you’re not sick of that yet.

Matthew: No. What about yourself? I know you’re living in Toronto, are you from Toronto?

Patrick: Yes, I am in Toronto now, but I’m originally from Montreal.

Matthew: Okay.

Patrick: So maybe we could start things where you could tell me a little bit about where you’re at with your web design journey so far. I think you said you’re just starting.

Matthew: Yes, pretty much. So, I guess like most people during these strange few months, I kind of just been doing a bit of reflection on what I want to do and I’ve always had an aspiration of running my own business or something along those lines. And I’ve done a little bit of web design before with the couple of jobs I’ve had since university. I’ve done a few bits of it and thought it was kind of interesting. And then I just thought I’d been doing some stuff for my current job and so I quite like doing the web design sort of stuff. It’s kind of interesting. And I started learning a little bit more, mostly for YouTube. And then I started building a couple of test sites about four weeks ago. So, I thought I would start seeing if I could get some customers and see how it would get on. I got four clients in the last month. Two people, I knew by using local networking and two people that I’ve never met and don’t know anything about it.

Patrick: Wow. That’s a good start

Matthew: Yes, exactly. So, I guess like most people, and probably you’ve been the same, I imagine you don’t know whether what you’re doing is necessarily going to work or whether what you’re doing is a good idea. So, some of the stuff that you’ve mentioned that I heard in your videos about recreating a website of somebody’s website and then sending them a video of it and saying “Can we do this to your website?” I’ve done that with a couple of them where I would create a homepage and just send the videos as part of my proposal of what I would do for them and give them an idea of what it looks like. And I thought that some of the stuff you said made me think that some of the things I’m doing are working or on the right lines, I guess.

Patrick: That’s awesome. So, what are the two businesses that you did that for? Are those the two clients you got?

Matthew: Yes. So, somewhat by accident, three out of four clients I’ve got so far are personal trainers and one’s a gym owner. One of them was my friend and I knew quite a few people who are doing online coaching now because, in most places, the gyms haven’t been open. So, I thought I was a good market to start because they all want to sell merchandise and all that kind of stuff and get people signed up to their programs. So, I thought that was good. And then the other one is just a local tradesman. I just found him on Google maps. It’s like what you suggested. I just found his email address somewhere and email them the idea.

How Matthew Got His First Web Design Clients

Patrick: That’s great. So, you signed both of those guys as clients?

Matthew: Yes

Patrick: That’s awesome.

Matthew: They’re all signed. So, two of the websites are just about done and then two of them are not too far away.

Patrick: So, how many times did you have to do that before you got your first one?

Matthew: To be honest, I haven’t asked that many people so far. I probably only really messaged about 10 people on Instagram and then sent maybe six emails, so far. I’ve had responses from most people because initially I was just sending a couple of people emails that I didn’t know well but may have connections with because I didn’t have any work or any proof that I knew how to do this and they just said: “fine, whatever.” And I thought “well, what can I do to change that?” even if it’s not wise. I don’t even want to go out and start buying domains and hosts when I don’t know if I’m going to sell on the websites. So, I found with Flywheel, they’ve got offline staging you can use. So that’s what I’ve been using and then just using the screen records and sending a couple of pages, et cetera.

Patrick: That’s fantastic. I’ve had a lot of people asking me about that lately. So, I’m glad you mentioned that. A lot of people are wondering where to build the site instead of having to register the domain and pay for hosting to send the link to the client.

Matthew: Yes, exactly.

Patrick: They’re looking for a local staging site. If you’re building with WordPress, we’re talking about. So, Flywheel is what you’re using and that’s a good one to use. It allows you to build for free and stage the site locally.

Matthew: Yes, it’s really good that I don’t think there are any limitations on how many sites you can build. I’ve probably got like 15 or so and I’ve never been told that I had to pay for anything. They haven’t asked for anything yet. So, I’ll keep using it while it’s there and available.

Patrick: That’s great. So, did you build six homepages for sites and send them out?

Matthew: Yes.

Patrick: So, you got two out of six. I would say that’s a pretty good ratio.

Matthew: Yes. So, I was quite happy with that. I think it’s worked so far.

What Tools Matthew is Using to Build Websites

Patrick: So, what were you using to build the sites, with WordPress?

Matthew: Yes, I used Elementor. For my current job during the day, the website was built with Dizzy, which is kind of like Elementor but you have to pay directly for that. So, that was quite good. And then I discovered Elementor and that was even better especially as initially, it is free. I could go on and just play by about with it and see if I liked it and I’ve just been using that since.

Patrick: Fantastic. Good for you, man. That’s going to be encouraging for a lot of people that are listening because a lot of people who’ve tried building a full homepage, redesigning the site for them, and sending them the link or video of it but what you did was very key. You specifically targeted certain businesses. We’re living in very strange times right now and what you’re finding is a lot of small businesses took too long to get an online presence or to get a website made. So, they’re scrambling now to try to transition their business to some kind of online or digital service and personal trainers are a perfect example. There are so many gyms and fitness centers, and Yoga studios that could go out of business if they don’t find a way to transition to this new online environment. So, you gave a lot of thought as to what specific ones would be the highest opportunity and the most likely to respond or most likely to convert. So, that’s great. So, what can I help you with then? What’s your biggest struggle right now?

How to Effectively Manage Your Time and Energy

Matthew: I would say one of the things I would be interested to know about, just because I’ve heard you speak about it a bit in the podcasts is the fact that you did different jobs before you eventually left them to do web design full- time. I currently still work in my day job and I want to know a little bit more about how you go about managing the time of making sure you did your day job and then also have enough time to make doing the web design worthwhile, but also fitting things in. That is what I struggle with most at the moment.

Patrick: That’s a good question. One I haven’t been asked lately. So, what do you do right now for work?

Matthew: So, I’m a finance analyst. We analyze the performance of businesses. That’s what we do.

Patrick: So, what helped me when I was doing it, because I was a window cleaner at the time, working full time. It did help that I was used to learning to focus from a young age because I was homeschooled through my high school years. So, I was able to develop an ability to put aside distractions to get work done when I’m in an environment that is full of distractions. That did help and I certainly had a foundation there. But, a couple of things that helped even more; I had a very clear goal as to what I wanted this whole thing to be. The whole reason I was doing in the first place was that I didn’t want to work a full-time job forever. I wanted to find some type of modest income that would allow me to work part-time or control my schedule and to work from anywhere. And that was the whole reason after all my research that I came around to web design and why it fits my goals perfectly. So, a lot of people get that reversed. They pick a source of income or a career or a skill to learn without actually thinking about what is their ultimate goal in the first place. What do they want to do with their lives? How do they want to spend their time? To me, you have to figure that out first, and then you find a type of work or income that fits that. So, I was able to do that and that’s why I came around to web design. The second key thing is if I had distractions and I had difficulty focusing at times, I needed to find a way to identify them and then aggressively attack them.

So, if I found that at the end of the day, all I wanted to do was watch Netflix, I canceled Netflix. I got rid of it. And if I just wanted to play PlayStation, then that was my challenge. Instead of having it in the room with me as a constant thing, as if it was saying “Hey, come over here”, I got rid of it. I removed it from my immediate environment. And so, it’s no longer a temptation. And there’s a really good book I read called “atomic habits”. I’m not sure if you heard about it. It’s a book that came out within the last six months. I think it’s very good. It’s about building good habits and eliminating bad ones. And it summed up how the best people that seem to have the strongest self-control, they figured out a long time ago that the best self-control is not having to use it at all.

They don’t allow themselves to fall into situations or scenarios where they will constantly be tempted to dive into bad habits again. They just remove it from the equation entirely. Self-control is a finite resource. That’s what it is. If you’re constantly tempted to go back to your kitchen cover is to grab the junk food and you’re trying to eat healthily if you keep a package of Oreos sitting on the kitchen counter all the time…

Matthew: It’s not going to help you.

Patrick: You’re constantly going to see them. So, when you’re hungry, are you going to go for a salad, or are you going to reach for those Oreos under the counter? It’s just immediate.

Matthew: If it’s not there, then you don’t have the problem, do you?

Patrick: So, you just remove it entirely. And it might sound extreme to a lot of people and it is. And think we live in a time where if you want to maintain your focus and a lot of ways, your sanity, you do have to get aggressive. So even after I got rid of all the TV streaming services and video games, I still work online and everyone knows the internet is just an endless rabbit hole of distractions. You can scroll through social media, endlessly, you can hop on Reddit, you can look at funny memes until three in the morning. They’re designed to be addictive. They’re designed to grab your attention.

Matthew: And keep you there.

Aggressively Filtering What Your Mind is Exposed To

Patrick: So yes, I still do this. If I find there is a certain site that just seems to keep drawing my attention and I don’t want it to, I block it. I have apps. Even Apple has a built-in filtering system. I’ll just add that domain to my system, press block, and I’m done. So, anytime I go back or I try to type it back in, it’s just blocked. And then eventually it just breaks that that cycle that’s in your brain. It doesn’t crave it anymore. So, it might sound extreme. It is. It’s just a matter of setting your most important priorities. And those things weren’t helping me meet my needs goals and set my priorities. They were nothing but distractions from that and damaging to that. So, I removed them. For other people, it might be different. Maybe someone’s trying to become a YouTuber or live game streamer. That seems to be popular these days. So, they’re going to need those. Those are tools now. They’re not just a waste of time. But you have to know yourself, know your weaknesses, and set your goals appropriately.

Matthew: No. That’s good to think about. I find definitely during this sort of lockdown period, that you realize when you can’t do things or you can’t see people or you can’t hang out with people or be with people that you waste just watching TV when actually, we could do something so much more productive with those two or three hours. That’s why I don’t want as much TV probably as I did six months ago because what am I gaining when I watch the TV? I can watch it as enjoyment [inaudible 15:38] maybe for sports. That’s the kind of thing I use it for, but TV shows and those things, I just stopped watching it.

Patrick: I’m the same. Sports are the only thing I still watch. I’m so glad hockey’s back in the little bubble here in Toronto. But a hundred percent. The other thing I started doing was that whatever activity I engaged in, I tried to be more mindful of how I felt afterward. Sometimes, you get into a routine or habit of something and you think you need something. You think that it’s providing you something when it’s not. For example, TV, you might think it’s a way to decompress, it’s harmless entertainment. It’s just a way to refresh myself after a long day at work. For me, it doesn’t have that effect at all. You could easily binge through three hours of something on Netflix and then afterward, you don’t feel refreshed. You don’t feel happier. You don’t feel productive. I found there were zero positive benefits to it. And as you said, everything in this world is designed to grab our attention and it is designed to grab our attention for money. That’s it. Social media only exists and it’s designed to be addictive because they need our eyeballs so they can push ads to make money. That’s it. Ads, ads, ads. And all these subscription services are the same thing. It’s a subscription model; more content, more content, more content. This one’s exclusive to this service. The whole point of streaming services in the first place was to get rid of cable. Now the internet has just become like cable. Every company has its streaming service and you spend a hundred bucks a month.

Matthew: Endless streaming services.

Patrick: It’s endless. The sheer amount of content that’s available these days is absurd. And you have to look at yourself and see what impact that stuff could be having on you and I didn’t like it. So, I got rid of it.

Matthew: That’s good advice. I listened to something you said about that and you said if you start eliminating two or three things, you can get a bit drastic and start trying to eliminate everything and that’s just never going to work. So, I think I’m going to start doing that. Just try going without certain things for a certain period and see how it goes and what the reaction is from that.

Patrick: Yes, you can’t just go cold turkey on everything. You’ll probably go mad. Do it with just a couple of things at a time. Make it gradual and see. Because as I said, sometimes you think you couldn’t live without something and you’d be very surprised how quickly your brain adapts and how you adapt to new situations and new environments and in a lot of ways, the positive benefits and the positive changes that happen once you’re removed from that constant stream of information and data and everything. Even the news, we live in an information age. It’s never been like this before. We have these little devices that are honestly feeding it to us and it’s all just for our attention. It does us no good. We’re not doing anything with it. It only serves these massive companies that make billions and trillions off of it.

The Best WordPress Plugins and Web Design Tools in 2020

Matthew: Exactly. And I also wanted to ask, because I don’t think I’ve heard you speak about this before. I’ve only just started. I haven’t bought much or looked too much at software or particularly plugins for Elementor. I was wondering what were your thoughts on things that you would recommend whether paid or free that I should look at or investigate. It’s a bit of a general question, but any software advice. I was looking at Photoshop. I’ve never used Photoshop. But should I have the software Photoshop shop in particular? Or is there an alternative to Photoshop? Or the same with plugins. Are there any plugins that people don’t know that much about?

Patrick: Good question. Photoshop, I would say is pretty much a must. I’ve used that since the beginning, just for basic photo editing, particularly the feature that allows you to compress images to smaller sizes. That is so crucial for websites because you need to try to make the pages as small as possible, so they load faster. And it’s an often-overlooked aspect of performance in websites. And Photoshop does it the best. Better than anything else I’ve seen. And it’s only 10 bucks a month. So, that one I would say it’s a must. As far as graphic design goes, I love Canva.

Matthew: I’ve heard of that.

Patrick: It’s an online-based tool. I’ve never seen a graphic design tool that’s so easy to use and allows for advanced designs for someone like me who has no graphic design skills.

Matthew: I’m the same.

Patrick: And frankly, it’s amazing how many free and affordable tools are available online these days. You don’t need any of the advanced stuff. Even with Adobe, you’re good with just Photoshop. Unless you plan on really getting into advanced graphic design or video editing, then you can get the Adobe Premier pro and illustrator and all of that stuff.

Matthew: There are loads of things there you don’t need.

Patrick: You don’t need any of that. It’s completely optional. If you want to get advanced. As far as plugins go, it’s tricky because if you Google essential WordPress plugins, you will find an insane amount of blog posts that all say, “these are the plugins you must have on every website.” And they’re all designed to do the same thing; get affiliate sales. They want to get their list to rank top of Google. So, when people click through, they say “oh, I need this plugin”, they click on it to download it and they get a cut of the sale from the company that makes the plugin. Now, not everyone out there is biased, but you have to ask yourself if there’s an editorial bias there. If you’re a blog post writer and you have two plugins to choose from, let’s say they are security plugins, one of them has an affiliate commission and the other one doesn’t and they’re both the same. Maybe even though the one that doesn’t offer affiliate sales is a little bit better but what’s the incentive of listing the one with no affiliate sales? You’re not going to make any bucks off that. So, if the other one is slightly or even much worse, there’s an incentive to list that one instead where you make 20 bucks off of the sale every time someone clicks on it. So, I’m very careful with every tool that I mention. I have it on my site. I have a list of tools that I’m currently using. Everything that’s there I use personally, or I have used personally in the past. I never just throw up ‘25 best WordPress plugins’ just for the sales. Anything that I do recommend, it’s because I use it. But, it’s murky water. So, I would say outside of Elementor, you need the basics. You need an SEO plugin. Yoast is the most common one. I’ve recently switched to Rank Math.

Why I Changed My Favorite SEO Plugin From Yoast to Rank Math

Matthew: That was something I was going to ask about because I’ve heard loads of people talk about Rank Math rather than using Yoast. And I’ve kept seeing that it’s a bit more built-in in terms of Rank Math, rather than using Yoast. But I don’t know what’s better because, at end of the day, it’s about ranking on a search engine and which one’s better for that.

Patrick: There are a couple of reasons why I decided to do it. So, it’s not so much that one will help you rank better in search engines than the other. It’s not about that. It’s about which plugin is easier to use. What kind of features does it offer? Does it offer integrations? I found that Rank Math has a more abundant suite of features that are available free than Yoast does. They hide a lot of that stuff behind the premium, which is fair. They’ve got to make money. And to be honest, it remains to be seen how Rank Math plans on making money. Right now, they’re just focused on acquiring a huge user base. So, we’ll see how that goes. But Yoast over the years to me became too bloated. There was too much unnecessary stuff. And it did something about a year ago that lost a lot of customers and fans. They forced a popup for a sale. It was a 60% off sale for the holiday break. They forced that on every website that has the Yoast plugin installed. It was an ad that popped up in the WordPress dashboard, which means all of my clients’ websites got this popup in their WordPress dashboards. They overreached for sure. And they ended up pulling it back and apologizing. But it was an example of how they’ve gotten too big and people started looking for alternatives. And that’s where Rank Math came out. So, I’m still new to Rank Math. I’ve only been using it for a few months, but so far, I like it better. It has better features and it’s easier to use and more intuitive. So, for an SEO plugin, it comes down to one of those two.

Matthew: Okay.

Why It’s Important to Keep Your Websites Lean and Mean

Patrick: Especially when you’re starting, you’re not going to have your server, so you won’t have full access to security features so, you should have some type of security plugin. I use WordFence.

Matthew: I’ve heard of that.

Patrick: There a lot and different security plugins and frankly, I don’t know a lot about a lot of them. I’ve done some research into them and a lot of them are just too big and too bloated. Word Fence seemed to have a nice balance between the number of free features without it becoming too bloated and slowing the site down. More importantly, it has an easy scan feature so, if there is a malware or something that leaks in, it detects it and you can go about removing it. So, an SEO, plugin, security plugin, and then outside of Elementor I would say it comes down to the individual site. Always think of keeping the plugins to a minim or as few as possible, only have the essential ones. If a client wants a feature for something, don’t try to jump right into thinking ‘what kind of plugin can do this feature?’ because that’s the lazy way of doing it. And you’re going to bloat your website into oblivion. I’m writing a post about this. There’ll be a podcast as well. A client went and hired a big agency in Toronto to have their website designed for $6,000. And the thing was over-bloated. It barely loaded. It was a mess. And I asked for the login so I can take a look at it. It had 32 plugins installed.

Matthew: That’s crazy!

Patrick: In addition to this theme that was full of garbage that they didn’t need, and it was built on this whole framework that was awful for $6000. So, I said, “we need to just rebuild this”. And I rebuilt the whole thing in Elementor. The same design, same look, because Elementor offers that custom functionality. And I did it for a fraction of the price and the thing works now. It only has eight plugins now and it does all the same things and has the same features. So, try to think minimalistic. Only put what’s essential and try to explain that to your clients as well especially if they’re asking for every feature under the sun. “I want a flash animated intro.” No.

Matthew: Try to keep it in mostly simple, but without going crazy. So, I think if you start doing a lot of creative stuff, nobody’s cares. When you go on the page, you just want it to tell you what you wanted to know. And then, outside of that as long as it looks clean, I don’t think you need to go too overboard with certain things.

Patrick: Yes. The user experience above all.

Is It Important to Display Web Design Pricing on Your Website?

Matthew: Yes, exactly. I was going to ask you though, I don’t think it’s a lot of businesses, but I’ve seen some people talk about this. They know from your website that you’ve got your general price point for your website and package. And I’ve heard some people say that you should put prices on your website, and some people say that you shouldn’t do that. And similarly, with other businesses. I wanted to know what your thoughts were on whether you should put prices on because obviously, you have. So, you think that it’s a good thing to have your prices on the site but is there a positive or negative behind not doing that?

Patrick: Prices are almost always good in any industry. Web design is a challenge because every project is different and therefore attracts a different price. You have to quote per project. So that’s a challenge. Only list your price if you can do it in a way that simplifies it for your visitor and doesn’t complicate things. So, if you’ve come up with a pricing system, that makes it clear, let’s say three packages to choose from; this, this, and this. And it’s obvious what the features are of each. Then it can be beneficial because it qualifies leads. You’ll scare people away, but that’s fine. You’re scaring away the people that aren’t the right client for you. If they look at your price and walk away, you just saved yourself a bunch of time because they were going to say ‘no’ no matter what. You would have gone through the whole back and forth conversation. “Yes, we can do this, this and that”. “Great. What’s the price?” And you say it and they say “Oh, I can’t afford that.” and they’re gone.” So, that’s the benefit of listing the price. But what I see so many web design agencies do is make it more complicated. They’ll put five different packages and there will be a spreadsheet of what each one includes. And there will be 20 or 30 things listed under each one. And if I don’t know web design, I don’t know what any of this stuff means. So, who is that benefiting?

Who’s going to look at all that information and say, “yes, I want that one.” It doesn’t make sense to me. So, I do have a price on there, but I only show the price for my hosting and maintenance package, the $39 a month. I don’t have any pricing for websites themselves. I’ve been thinking a lot about that lately because I do want to find a way to productize my service and make it simpler so that people can just buy a package. But because I haven’t found a way yet, that makes it super simple and obvious, I’m not going to do it until I find that solution. I’m going to leave it as a quote per project and just make it clear what my hosting and maintenance packages are in terms of the monthly subscription, which is my key sell anyway.

Ecommerce Alternatives to Woocommerce + WordPress

Matthew: So, the only other thing I was going to ask, there was a question for this, but it was about e-commerce. I’ve done a couple of websites with woo-commerce. I don’t know if there’s anything else outside of e-commerce that you can use for WordPress. I think Woo-commerce works but I’m not sold on whether I like it or not as a tool.

Patrick: Woo-commerce, to me is like the necessary evil of WordPress e-commerce. It has the most features. It’s the most extensive. It has the most integrations. So that is what I use. This is a better simpler option at this point. But frankly, if you’re doing a WordPress eCommerce site, as far as I’m concerned and based on the research I’ve done, it’s WooCommerce. Otherwise, you can build a Shopify site. Shopify is the leader in eCommerce websites for sure.

Matthew: It’s a shame we can’t connect them.

Patrick: Well, I have built Shopify sites for clients, because specifically, if they want an eCommerce site, I’ll just build it in Shopify because Shopify is depending on what they’re selling, it’s better in a lot of ways. So, for commerce, Shopify is the best.

How to Transfer a Website to a Client Once It’s Published

Matthew: I’ve heard quite a bit about that. The only other thing I have to ask and this is the last question I promise. I’ve seen you mention your website before, where you allow clients, once the website’s up to change the tools and the texts. And I was wondering, is there a limit on the control you give them? Because I’ve so far, I have not allowed anybody to do anything on the websites. Because technically, it’s their website and they can do whatever they want so, how do you manage what they do? It’s a tricky thing.

Patrick: I handle it differently on a per-client basis. I try to gauge what their skill level is with web design. Some people do know quite a bit, so they can handle it better. Others know nothing, and they want to just dabble and tweak. And sometimes I’ll try to convince them or make it obvious to them by saying “that might not be a good idea for this reason”, but you’re right. Ultimately, it’s their website. If they want access to it, they get access to it. My solution is I have daily backups. So, when they inevitably break their site or mess something up, I back it up with the most recent version. I restore it. That’s the best solution to it.

Matthew: Because it’s not something that I’ve broached yet in terms of allowing them to just go on and do whatever they want.

Patrick: It can be tricky.

Matthew: I’ve downloaded “Manage WP” which has been quite handy for making sure they’re not saving log-in details for other people’s sites and stuff. And I know you can do backups but I’m probably going to have to get to the point soon of making sure they are backed up.

Patrick: Yes. That comes down to what your business model is. There are a lot of WordPress management companies that will handle the services for you if you want. I chose to do it myself because I want to make more profit instead of paying someone else to do it. I leased my dedicated server and I just hired a freelancer IT guy to manage it for me because I don’t want to get into server management and all that stuff. But I want to keep the majority of the monthly hosting profits for myself.

Matthew: [inaudible 37:09] so, you can do it in the long run.

Our Mutual Hatred for Social Media and Concluding Thoughts

Patrick: Do you have a website for your business as yet for yourself?

Matthew: There is a website, but as soon as I felt that I was going to start doing something, I created something as quickly as possible and set it up so it’s going to be changed. The website is mldigitalsolutions.co.uk. It’s not a mess, but it’s not great at the moment. I did it quickly so that I had some form of presence online. There was no point in starting anything. I haven’t done anything about advertising. I’m not that fussy about getting into social media too much because I think that it just takes too much time initially to get into.

Patrick: I’m not a fan of social media. I don’t like it. But SEO is the way to go if you can. It’s a long game.

Matthew: Absolutely. That’s one thing I was going to ask about. I’ve heard, you mention it a couple of times. There’s an SEO software called Ahrefs. But I can’t work out how you spell that because I was looking for online. I haven’t found it anywhere.

Patrick: It’s a reference to a line of HTML code, but it’s A H R E F S. So, it’s the line that you would do. A certain line of HTML code.

Matthew: Okay. I’ll try putting that on YouTube and see what comes up.

Patrick: That’s the problem with having a bit of a cheeky name.

Matthew: That’ helpful. I’ll go and have a look at some of their stuff.

Patrick: So, Matthew. It’s been great chatting with you. Do you have any last questions for me? I have to hop on another call in a minute

Matthew: No, I think that’s it for now.

Patrick: Sweet

Matthew: It’s been really good. Thank you.

Patrick: Thanks for reaching out. And I look forward to seeing how your business grows and evolves.

Matthew: Yes, that would be good. I’ll have to start using the Launches app.

Patrick: Yes, there’s my promotion. There’s my advertising.

Matthew: I’ll get your plugin for that.

Patrick: There we go. Thanks. All right. Have a good one. Stay safe.

Matthew: Yes. And you. Bye. Bye.

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